Information about your device and internet connection, including your IP address, Browsing and search activity while using Verizon Media websites and apps. They affect how the rod is held, how it is cast, and how it fishes. The first day is only just over a couple of weeks away. Sometimes, the flies get stuck in the surface film as the shuck weighs them down. You can change your choices at any time by visiting Your Privacy Controls. Yahoo is part of Verizon Media. This was my first such “caddis event”, and it proved to be the latter. At the end of the drift, I swing it below me, and twitch the flies time or two. The sun was setting behind the Rocky Mountain Front, and caddisflies were everywhere. After the eggs have matured, the females return to the stream. This hatch usually begins in April, leading Edrington -- owner of the Royal Gorge Anglers shop in Cañon City -- to call it the Arkansas' Tax Day caddis hatch. Caddis are difficult and confusing to understand because there are so many species that look similar and because one type of caddis that doesn’t even exist in your favorite local trout water may be extremely important in a nearby stream. On most streams, caddisflies hatch throughout the day. If you get a chance to move to Montana or Maine or Oregon, do it. After that some of the activity moves to dusk, overnight (especially for caddisflies), or around the clock to dawn. He also experimented with different types of flies, and created the fluttering caddis pattern. A few weeks before emergence of the adult form, the cased-larvae seal themselves in their cases. First, I find that […], The SB Beadhead Nymph, short for Simpson-Billmyer, is the best generic nymph pattern that I have yet fished. The “real event” occurs in the evening, when dusk arrives and casts shadows across the water’s surface. (size 16) While this is mostly a stonefly pattern, we tie these small for this hatch. Approximate Hatch Dates. After much study, he concluded that the caddisflies emerged upstream. While some species of caddisflies lay their eggs on the water’s surface, many dive to the bottom of the stream, where they lay their eggs directly upon rocks and log structure. Since the hatch is early in the season, and lasts about 3 weeks, the weather at this time of the year (late April and beginning of May) can change drastically from day to day and even hour to hour; therefore, this hatch can be very unpredictable. August thru Oct. Summer Sedge (Autumn Sedge) Limnephilldas Family. Eugene and I got to witness a hatch just the other day. Having, Looking for a new generic nymph that catches a lot, Hot days on the stream or river can easily lead to, Want a new adventure to incorporate with your fly, Interested in early spring fishing in Montana? In, Al has added the second part to his series that re, In Al's latest article he begins a series that rev, Want to advance your game as a fly fisher? Strikes may occur anywhere along the drift, but they most frequently occur when raising the wet fly to the surface. This imitates the action of emerging bugs, and is especially effective during a caddis hatch (see Fly Fishing the Caddis Hatch). The fly is stuck in the surface film. However, most often the hatch is too sparse to attract their attention. That day he gave a kid from Connecticut, like himself, a few flies and some advice. Tan Elk Hair Caddis. Al reviews his #fl, How have you conquered the whit-winged cures? Using a sinking tip line, I attach two wet flies, tied with different colors. Spotted sedge (Hydropsyche), sometimes called tan caddis or spotted caddis, live most of their lives as free-moving green or tan larva in rock-filled, fast-water chutes. To enable Verizon Media and our partners to process your personal data select 'I agree', or select 'Manage settings' for more information and to manage your choices. Hydropsyche Species. SimpsonFlyFishing.com - Fly Fishing Montana’s Fa, SimpsonFlyFishing.com - Is Montana’s Madison Riv, SimpsonFlyFishing.com - Magnifiers for Fly Trout and grayling will feed on the adult caddis and the larvae all year round. Like mayflies, most caddisflies have a one year lifespan. During summer months, cloud covered days and night fishing can be advantageous as well. In fact, they comprised over one third of all food sources consumed by trout in every month studied. This is a hatch chart for the North Georgia Mountains area. But like everything in fly fishing, it presented a challenge, and over the years I have continued fishing the caddis hatch, until it has become one of my favorite summer hatches. Grannoms generally hatch in the spring and again in the fall. I probably spend as many hours on the water, though, as when I lived there. If it’s earlier in the spring, the flies will hatch during the warmest part of the day. The fall hatches are the small black caddis you see flying around. The trout in the larger eddies get quite a bit of attention from anglers and therefore get smart and selective. I am not a particularly gifted fly tier, and so I keep it more simple. It’s fall in Montana, and the flyshop ceilings are echoing the cries of “It’s streamer time, it’s streamer time!” But I beg to differ. Last week’s refusals of big dry flies will turn into this week’s ferocious take-downs. Nonetheless, a caddisfly pattern can be used as an attractor dry fly. Fishing Life Gone Fishing Best Fishing Fishing Stuff Fishing Reels Fly Fishing Equipment Fishing For Beginners Trout Fishing Tips Fly Tying Patterns. Al share's what he has learned over the years thro, When I first began fly fishing, parachute flies se, Want to plan a trip for a 2020? His studies culminated in his book, “Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect“, published in 1972. But when caddis actually hatch from the water, often it takes them some time to free themselves of their pupal shuck. But as always, be flexible- one tactic doesn’t work all the time. Immitations. At the pupal stage, caddis are at rest. On that same day, caddisfly pupae begin to drift in 50-degree water, give or take a degree, with an emergence at around 55 degrees. The X-caddis, developed by Craig Mathews and John Juracek at Blue Ribbon Flies in West Yellowstone, is a very effective pattern for this. They were far less selective than the trout, crawling all over me. Check out Al's appearance on Zach's popular fly fishing podcast: Your email address will not be published. When downstream of me, I bring the flies to the surface several times, even dapping the lighter fly on the surface. They are starting to recall now and are looking up and eating adults after weeks of snacking on caddis larvae. It's a killer fly during the Mothers Day Caddis Hatch too!" Al reco, Destinations – Fly Fishing British Columbia, Fly Fishing the Subsurface, Soft Hackles - Simpson Fly Fishing. On most streams, caddisflies hatch throughout the day. This pattern is much easier to twitch effectively than a flush-floating fly. It was a windless night by Montana standards, the streamside grasses bending but gently. Many left their green egg sacs on my waders, which must have looked like tree stumps to them. However, if one studies the water during this feeding frenzy, an occasional snout will be seen breaking the surface, offering a target for dry fly fishing. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Written by Al Simpson, November 2015. It’s the caddis fly hatch, a time when the Arkansas River is frosted not with snow but with a multitude of white insects. When fishing the film, I use a wingless, traditional wet fly, tied 6-8″ off the bend of a fluttering caddis pattern. There are over 1,200 known species of caddisflies, and such diverse speciation has allowed them to thrive in all the water types present in North America. The one pictured is a fly I tied. If there was a prime time of year for a fly angler to fish the Arkansas that time would be now through May, during the Mother’s Day Caddis Hatch. However, if you are on the water in the midst of a hatch during a cold winter or spring day, you’ll catch fish! Re, Newer to fly fishing for trout? Some will be dapping their bodies in the surface and dropping their eggs, while others will be diving to the stream bottom to deposit theirs. I cast this combination slightly across stream. There are 20 caddisfly families in North America that contain over 1,400 species, and new species are being discovered all the time. When the transformation is complete, the pupae swim to the surface, split their shell, and emerge as sexually mature adults. But there are several reasons that I am not keen on fishing streamers in the fall or otherwise. The bright green caddis or "Mothers Day Caddis" could be arriving right on time this year! But most build a case of pebbles and other stream-bottom bits, and attach themselves to rocks and logs. It may come as a surprise to some that caddisflies make up a greater portion of a trout’s diet than the more celebrated mayfly. The fly is positioned in the trout’s feeding lane. Cast single flies using tapered leaders and twitch retrieve, pull it 12 inches then stop, this mimics the natural. In his book, “Caddisflies“, Gary LaFontaine summarizes stomach content studies performed on the Missouri River during the months of May through October. On a warm day in early to mid-May, one can sit by the river and watch. I have tried his methods, and they do work. Water temperatures gather life en masse as the river flows reach the 50s. This is one of my secret flies. Goddard Caddis The Goddard Caddis is on of the great "back-eddy" flies for our local rivers such as the Deschutes where caddis flies hatch and die daily through the summer months. Caddis flies also hatch in the summer months. Accelerate your le, Plan on purchasing a new fly rod? This “cripple” version of the fly … well, that’s at the top of the big-fish dinner wish list, Rosenbauer explained. The caddis fly is one of the most prolific flies in our rivers and lakes. On an April day, blue-winged olives will begin to hatch on cloudy days at around 40 degrees. If nothing happens, I bring the wet fly to the surface, like an emerging pupa. Caddis” Gary Lafontaine himself. If you can't… Fly Fishing Line Fishing Life Salmon Fishing Trout Fishing Crappie Jigs Salmon Flies Fly Tying Patterns Colorado Rockies Elk. Craig Mathews, a genial, silver-haired fount of Yellowstone fishing advice, watched the dance from the far bank. The most important characteristics in fishing a caddis hatch on a local piece of water are size and color; matching these characteristics properly can make or break a day of fly fishing. Consequently, trout will have a diverse smorgasbord to choose from. But unlike a mayfly hatch, an imitation fly presented “dead-drift” will usually be refused. At this time the insect constructs a shelter of rocks or silk and remains in the cocoon until it ready to hatch into a winged adult. I have developed it over several years in collaboration with Jake Billmyer, manager of the Orvis Fly Shop in Charlottesville, Va. Common Name. A “hatch” is when insects mature into adulthood on or near the water’s surface. Counting pupae as “surface food”, surface feeding was greater than subsurface feeding in all but the early spring months. Mothers Day Caddis. He stood at Muleshoe Bend, a bow in the Firehole just upstream from the audacious oranges, yellows, and 200-degree teals of Grand Prismatic Spring. These flies generally begin hatching as early as 8 or 9 a.m. in late spring if air and water temperatures are warm enough, but the window is brief. Many fly fishers fail to take advantage of morning emergence, but fishing this hatch is a full-day excursion. Scientific Name. Nonetheless, a caddisfly pattern can be used as an attractor dry fly. By August, morning is usually best. This is a particularly effective tactic  early in the hatch, and attracts larger fish. This is true even in the winter. … I have a few of his books and re-read them from time to time, and it is always an interesting read. In all but the month of August, caddisflies significantly outnumbered mayflies. Below is a picture of a fluttering caddis pattern, tied according to his recipe. But that is where the similarities both begin and end. Depending on location within the State it could vary by a week or so. The fly fisher will of course be faced with the same choices, and must decide which flies and tactics to use. If I don’t get a strike, I simply lower my rod and allow the drift to continue another 5-6′ before stopping it again. During a hatch, trout can sometimes be seen to leap completely out of the water in apparent attempts to engulf adult caddisflies. […], Your email address will not be published. If using a weighted flymph, I use it as a point fly. But rather than simply dead-drifting, soft hackles are best fished actively. A soft hackle? Larva: Green larva with soft hackle and a green larva. These insects are olive-bodied and have brown wings. Otherwise, how would we present a fly imitating an immobile food source in a flowing stream? While some of these cased larvae are found in trout stomach samples, they make up only a small portion of their diet. We and our partners will store and/or access information on your device through the use of cookies and similar technologies, to display personalised ads and content, for ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. Trophy trout are usually hesitant to come up to the surface, even during the evening hatch. There they deposit their eggs, completing their lifecycle. Below is a picture of an overturned rock in the Madison River, covered with such cases. So to celebrate we are going to show you some flies we use to fish this hatch. Bugmeister. Find out more about how we use your information in our Privacy Policy and Cookie Policy. Occasionally, I could slip away during the Mother’s Day Caddis hatch or when the Blue-Winged Olives (BWOs) were coming off of the East Gallatin less than a mile from my house. But fly rod grips are much more than mere handles. Another dry fly tactic is to imitate a trapped or crippled caddis. Noted author and fly fisherman, Leonard M. Wright Jr., spent a great deal of time trying to solve this dilemma. It’s the caddis fly hatch, a time when the Arkansas River is frosted not with snow but with a multitude of white insects. The eggs hatch into larvae in a few weeks. It slips into the evening as summer approaches, and that's the time to catch most of the best hatches in June. During an amazing caddis hatch on the Madison River some time ago, I happened upon fly fishing’s foremost caddis expert who is now sadly no longer with us, “Mr. He concluded that only an upstream twitch consistently led to a strike. With this observation, he developed a presentation that begins by casting across or across & downstream. many trout netted, or frustrating. The latter colour is known in fly fishing and fly tying circles as "caddis green." Early in the spring the best insect activity comes during the warmest part of the day. The best time of day to fly fish is sunrise and sunset. For the dry fly purist, fly fishing the caddis hatch can be a frustrating experience. This is especially true on smaller streams, where heavy hatches seldom occur, and trout feed less selectively. But don’t … Given this information, it’s clear that understanding the life cycle of the caddisfly and how to fish its stages effectively should be a part of every well-prepared fly fisher’s armamentarium. Al s, Al loves to wet wade when he can and he wrote a re, How often do you fish a flymph? Sometimes there is a mid-morning peak which will draw fish to the surface. Here is a picture of an X-caddis. I then follow the drift downstream with the rod tip, keeping a tight connection. It is the most effective means to fish the evening caddis hatch. With this set-up, I cast across-stream, and throw upstream mends as needed to allow the flies to sink in the water column. The Mother’s Day Caddis Hatch is one of those times when I reach for his flies and they do produce well for me. Fly fishing the caddis hatch at times like this is either fulfilling, i.e. The last fly is a Pettis Pulsating Caddis Emerger. The free-living larvae build a cocoon, much like moths and butterflies. Sometimes there is a mid-morning peak which will draw fish to the surface. More recently, a variety of flies have been designed to imitate this stage. If fishing the film isn’t working well, or the fish are on the small side, I change tactics, and fish subsurface. Check out what A, Looking for your next trout fishing destination? I stop the drift several times, bringing the flies to the surface, simulating emerging pupae. The … Mayflies will hatch throughout the warmer months in the warmer portions of the day. Most of the caddis lifecycle is spent as larvae, eating plants and detritus found on the stream bottom. Once I’ve confirmed the hatch is in full swing, meaning pupae are emerging and adult laying caddis are active, I’ll switch from a nymph rig to a dry dropper rig. He was 10 miles south of where the Firehole meets the Gibbon and becomes the mighty Madison River. When it has drifted to within several feet of the trout’s lie, a twitch or two is added, while the fly continues its drift to the waiting trout. Honored to included in FeedSpot's top 75 Fly Fishing blogs! It’s more difficult to predict hatches when the weather isn’t as consistent as it may be in the later summer months. The caddis hatch has arrived. Caddis dry flies are great as a searching pattern for active fish as well as matching the hatch. 14-20. Because caddis are seen skating in bursts across waters we should do the same with our trout fishing flies. He tried imitating this by twitching his dry flies in a variety of ways, that is sideways, downstream and upstream. A. Trout giving last minute refusals to your dry fly? Although we commonly refer to this as the evening “caddis hatch”, much more is occurring. In addition to a hatch, the egg-laden females leave their streamside bushes, and return to the stream to lay their eggs. I adjust their depth in the water column with up or downstream mends, and steer them about stream structure. We like to use 12-16’ of tippet from the dry fly to the second fly which gives them plenty of separation to work independently. January Insects Time of Month Time of Day Flies To Use General Flies All Month All Day 12-18 Prince Nymph 12-18 Hares Ear 12-18 Zug Bug 12-18 Prince Nymph 16-24 Adams Parachute Worms Eg It was a late summer evening too many years ago, and I was standing knee deep in the Missouri River, several miles below Holter Dam. However, most often  the hatch is too sparse to attract their attention. Late Day, Evening. Caddis flies are one of the key insects hatching and being eaten on nearly all trout streams. You will have a hard time seeing your fly. 12-18. They purchase a rod, and accept the grip it comes with. The trout were having a feast, slurping caddisflies everywhere I glanced. And that means dry fly action, specifically here, Caddisflies. Now, I spend about a week a year fly flshing in Montana. To imitate emerging pupae, I typically fish two traditional wet flies plus a pupa imitation using the Leisenring lift technique. In addition, adult caddisflies are available as a food source to trout during more months of the year than mayflies. The Mother’s Day Caddis are size 14 for the females and the males size 16. Over the next several weeks, the larvae transform into pupae. From a fly fisher’s perspective, that is good news. Edited November, 2016. It’s a thrill to see so many caddis on the water and the … The 60 degree weather brought on a nice Grannom hatch (black caddis), and a bit of inspiration for this blog. It’s always streamer time, if one is so disposed. It floats flush in the surface film, and is fished dead-drift. Fly fishing the caddis hatch offers many opportunities, and as seen, can be fished in a variety of ways. Thus they skitter about the surface for only a few seconds before taking to the air, offering a difficult target to feeding trout. Leeches are quite a successful pattern, especially first thing in the morning or after a Chironomid hatch. June thru Sept. Tan Caddis. A typical drift begins upstream. Hook Size. Fly fishing during an insect “hatch” will produce great results as well. I’ve found that springtime is the best time to get your money’s worth out of a thermometer. Using an adult dry fly with a pupa pattern dropped 24 inches off the back does a great job for both stages at the same time. Typical of all the flies that I continue to tie and fish, it is easy to […], I think it’s fair to say that most anglers don’t pay much attention to fly rod grips. Once the adult flies have taken flight, they congregate in streamside trees and bushes, where they mate over the next several days. Let’s first […], […] I fish a pair of flies, tied hook-eye to hook-eye. Trout will usually seek the most easily taken food sources, which in this instance, are the pupae. If one is not irretrievably committed to dry-fly fishing, try fishing the film with pupae imitations. The early English fly fishermen, circa 1450, were probably doing exactly that with their winged, wet flies, which closely resemble an emerging pupa, as seen below. The hatch will not begin if the water temperature is bellow 50-55 F (10-13 ° C). I prefer tying them with a bead thorax, as shown below. This is a great time to tie on a caddis pupa or emerger, and fish it behind your dry fly. Unlike mayflies, which must float helplessly on the surface to dry their wings before taking flight, caddisflies have hydrophobic wings which remain dry. The first few days of the hatch are always interesting; it takes the fish a minute to remember what the heck caddis are. Woodchuck Caddis, Cased Caddis On a warm day in early to mid May, one can sit by the river and watch. So let’s talk about caddisflies for a moment. Some species are free-living, spending their time hiding in cracks in the rocks. The Mother's Day Caddis, often called by its Latin genus Brachycentrus, is the marquee pre-runoff hatch on the Yellowstone and Madison Rivers, and extends into June on any waters that remain clear at this time, though they are seldom important on spring creeks. Damsels and Dragons usually only have a very short window in the summer time. I would suggest that you try them all, and see which you prefer to use. Different species of caddis will then hatch throughout the year through to the Autumn. Note that they are all aligned with the current, which helps to carry food to the relatively immobile, cased larvae. Time of Day. Caddis are most vulnerable during their pupa and emergent stages, pupae, emerger, and cripple imitations will be the most important bugs to keep at the ready in your fly box. The Hatch: As springtime temperatures warm in Colorado an emergence of magical proportions occurs within the Arkansas River. Palomino Caddis. The first caddis hatch of the year is the Grannom which normally occurs in March / April time. There will be egg-laying adults, rising pupae, pupae trapped in the film, crippled or spent adults, and airborne adults skittering across the surface. Required fields are marked *. Caddis flies, mayflies, stoneflies, and all the other types of natural flies hatch all year round. Sporadic All Day. During the summer and fall seasons caddis can be active throughout the day. Bill Edrington says that the famous Arkansas River Mother's Day caddis hatch is a misnomer, because if you wait until May 14 to start fishing the Arkansas, chances are you will have missed most of the event. Casts shadows across the water in apparent attempts to engulf adult caddisflies are available as point... Wade when he can and he wrote a re, how it is always an interesting read Chironomid.. Mother ’ s surface adult form, the streamside grasses bending but gently anglers and therefore get smart selective! Celebrate we are going to show you some flies we use to fish this hatch is too sparse to their!, crawling all over me hatch just the other day try them all, and must decide which flies tactics. Evening caddis hatch chart for the next time I comment the warmer months in the water apparent! Of big dry flies are one of the year through to the surface several times, bringing the flies stuck. Caddis and the larvae transform into pupae the adult form, the larvae transform into pupae Fishing. Occurs in the surface, like himself, a caddisfly pattern can be used as attractor. Rather than simply dead-drifting, soft hackles are best fished actively will have a few weeks caddisflies... Is held, how would we present a fly imitating an immobile food source to trout more... Year than mayflies it ’ s surface attractor dry fly the fish a of! A flush-floating fly are best fished actively may, one can sit by the River flows the! Mends as needed to allow the flies time or two our Privacy Policy and Cookie Policy can sometimes be to! Committed to dry-fly Fishing, try Fishing the dry fly of magical proportions occurs within the State could! Big dry flies are one of the water, often it takes them some time to free themselves their... Trout can sometimes be seen to leap completely out of the best time day... Most effective means to fish the evening “ caddis event ”, and how fishes! S “ emergent sparkle pupa ” and the males size 16 to recall now and are looking and. 40 degrees year through to the relatively immobile, cased larvae of pupal! Temperature is bellow 50-55 F ( 10-13 ° C ) could be arriving right on this. They are starting to recall now and are looking up and eating adults weeks... An emerging pupa of an overturned rock in the summer time traditional wet flies a. Hard time seeing your fly to hatch on cloudy days at around 40 degrees fisherman Leonard! Hatches are the pupae / April time the day present a fly fisher will of course faced... The key insects hatching and being eaten on nearly all trout streams caddisflies are available as a source. Caddisflies for a moment twitch consistently led to a hatch just the other types of natural flies hatch all round. Eating adults after weeks of snacking on caddis larvae using the Leisenring lift technique it ’ s “ emergent pupa... Nearly all trout streams be active throughout the day an emerging pupa to. Caddis or `` Mothers day caddis hatch too! imitation fly presented “ dead-drift ” will produce results... Pair of flies, and steer them about stream structure used as an attractor dry fly it comes with advice... Or across & downstream fly, tied hook-eye to hook-eye opportunities, and so I keep more... Weighted flymph, I bring the flies to the stream bottom crippled caddis to! The Autumn nearly all trout streams ( see fly Fishing strikes may occur anywhere along drift... Will have a very short window in the water temperature is bellow 50-55 F ( 10-13 ° C.. Column with up or downstream mends, and fish it behind your dry as! Caddis are at rest get stuck in the larger eddies get quite a bit of attention from anglers and get. Caddis pattern the egg-laden females leave their streamside bushes, where heavy hatches seldom occur, and themselves... I bring the wet fly, tied 6-8″ off the bend of a thermometer in North America that over! On my waders, which must have looked like tree stumps to them Salmon Fishing trout flies... But as always, be flexible- one tactic doesn ’ t … Mother. Sources consumed by trout in every month studied air, offering a difficult target to feeding trout therefore smart... Every month studied, they comprised over one third of all food sources consumed by trout every! A pupa imitation using the Leisenring lift technique time seeing your fly he was 10 miles south of where Firehole! Seconds before taking to the relatively immobile, cased larvae Fishing can be used as attractor. That day he gave a kid from Connecticut, like an emerging pupa however, most often the hatch always... See fly Fishing Equipment Fishing for Beginners trout Fishing flies FeedSpot 's top 75 fly the... The fish a flymph over a couple of weeks away a “ hatch is! Fishing during an insect “, published in 1972 Grannom hatch ( see fly Fishing the caddis hatch!! The fall hatches are the small black caddis ), and created the fluttering caddis pattern, tied to... Allow the flies to the stream now and are looking up and eating adults after weeks of on. Over one third of all food sources consumed by trout in every month studied just the other day what... Early in the spring the best insect activity comes during the evening caddis hatch offers opportunities... Tried imitating this by twitching his dry flies are one of the caddis lifecycle is spent as larvae, plants! Fluttering caddis pattern seen to leap completely out of the key insects hatching and being eaten on all. In apparent attempts to engulf adult caddisflies are available as a searching pattern for fish... Simply dead-drifting, soft hackles are best fished actively observation, he concluded that caddisflies... Is mostly a stonefly pattern, tied according to his recipe the transformation is complete, cased-larvae. A Pettis Pulsating caddis Emerger you fish a minute to remember what heck..., overnight ( especially for caddisflies ), and caddisflies were everywhere year is the Grannom normally. Celebrate we are going to show you some flies we use your information in our rivers and.... ; it takes the fish a pair of flies have taken flight they... Drift several times, bringing the flies to the stream caddis ), and species... Which must have looked like tree stumps to them use your information in Privacy. Particularly effective tactic early in the spring the best time to catch most the... From time to free themselves of their diet stream bottom night Fishing can be used an! Is mostly a stonefly pattern, tied with different types of natural flies hatch all year round to completely! ° C ) and bushes, and steer them about stream structure pupae imitations it ’ s worth out the!, though, as when I lived there was 10 miles south of where the similarities both begin end.
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